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143142-dont-make-the-game-easier
Content ---- ---- | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- I agree with all of these suggestions. The raid one might be hard to apply at this point, but a loot lockout would help a lot. | |} ---- ---- The only instances that are specific to one side or the other are the first adventures, and this is for lore reasons. Stormtalon is equally accessible to both sides. And is an amazing dungeon! | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ^ This. Someone gets it. I have no problem with "hard content". I have LOTS of problems with hard content for rewards I can't use 90% of the time because lazy developers opted for RNG loot rather than a tradeable token loot system that ensures everyone gets as much out as they put in. All The Best | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- The thing is, that's not really what they do any more. Between Vet Expeditions, Season 2 PvP gear, and crafted dungeon gear, the progression benefits of adventure gear are really pretty miniscule. People run Vet Expeditions because they're fun and rewarding without a big hassle. They're not at all rewarding in terms of gear, but they're fun and they're pretty rewarding in terms of plat per minute spent and they're very accessible. Vet Adventures are also be fun, but they're more of a hassle to get into and much less rewarding because they take a lot longer to get into and to run. I don't think they need better gear, but they do need to be more rewarding to reflect the lower accessibility, group requirements, and longer time to complete. I think it important to stress that the rewards need to be worth doing at all levels of completion--base, bronze, silver, gold--not just "gold rewards are worth it, nothing else is" unless you want to relive the fun-filled days of Gold Or Bust in casual group content. | |} ---- ---- Do people just not rune at all currently? Gear has some impact as far as assault power/support power but it's mostly all about the rune stats that are added into the gear. In other words, "you can only enter with ilvl60 gear" wouldn't really mean anything. | |} ---- Exactly. Yes, don't turn WildStar into Hello Kitty Island Adventure, but we've seen the results of trying to make everything in the game HARDCORE™. I'm all for a nice middle ground that keeps WildStar from dying. | |} ---- at iLvl 70 to 80 it's still real difficult to heal. iLvl 60 runed is pretty much the bare minimum. I said not to outright not allow people to enter content, because some can do it at a lower iLvl, but it's tough. | |} ---- I'm just pointing out how pointless ilvl is currently, I do more dps on my ilvl60 alt with runes than someone with very few/no runes in ilvl100s. Regarding healing, it's just a limit to their focus as far as I know that makes it difficult currently. Edited October 14, 2015 by Naix | |} ---- But it's not as pointless as you make out. Because ilvl does give a rough estimation of where the person is in progression. If a person has ilvl60, then that person is likely either an alt who knows what's going on, or a new player who needs a little guidance. A player with ilvl 100 should have enough experience to judge for himself what makes sense. Thus, a warning pop up for people with low ilvls would help, even if it's not a great judge of effectiveness. | |} ---- What would help is some kind of forced rune education/a pack of cheap runes for level 50s, at least in my opinion. Ilvl60 warning crap or not, I've done dungeons all week and every dungeon I pug I'm bound to have 2 runeless dps 1 runeless healer and 1 runeless tank to carry. Edited October 14, 2015 by Naix | |} ---- Yeah, if there is a place in-game that explain Runes, I must have missed it. I only learned how the new system "mostly" works by reading the Casual Scrub's Stalker Tank Guide. If not for that, I'd still be totally clueless instead of mostly clueless. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- half of my PVE gear is unruned because runing my PvP gear has eaten up 20 plat so far and I still got my weapon to rune. While defensive rune slots on healers can be sort of useful, because of how expensive runing is you want to get it right first time, meaning a re-roll heaven. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- I find it funny how people actually see this as a challenging game. The combat is so easily telegraphed it could be considered to have training wheels. There are games out there that offer real challenges such as Tera and Vindictus. I dont think the OP is actually concerned about people crying for the game to be made easier because i have yet to see so many of these so called posts lately. What makes this game difficult is the lack of information and anti solo mechanics. Balancing content out to remove these 2 issues would not make the game easier. All it would do is allow players to be able to understand the game faster and give true hardcore players the ability to create decent challenges in the game. Maybe the OP is just scared that the new arrival of players are going to be better than him at the game. Would make sense why he's against any changes to this mmo thats on its last thread of survival. | |} ---- We're doing a repeat of what happened at launch last time, where runes were so hard to come by that nobody would slot them until they were already min-maxing gear they intended to keep, only this time it really cuts into their performance as well. Veterans have rune tokens from the conversion and fewer rune slots, but new people don't and cannot afford to spend every dime on runecrafting of gear that they're going to outlevel in a day or so. | |} ---- ---- Exactly this. I don't think the rune system is good for the game at all. It is opaque, confusing, messy, over-complicated (even after being reworked) and inaccessible. It STILL needs a third party addon to be make sense of it properly. It doesn't even make much sense from a lore standpoint either - why runes, is Wildstar incapable of coming up with its own concepts free of fantasy trope baggage? I say all this as someone who properly runed all my gear under the old system and had all my class set bonuses maxed out. I did this without addons (although I know how to use Runemaster too). I didn't like the old system much but I did reluctantly learn how to master it. When I heard they were reworking runes for Drop 6 my reaction was "good, it needs a rework". I now find myself wishing they'd left it alone because in many ways it is worse. I find myself looking at the new rune system, the lack of documentation and the endless mail messages full of rune tokens and elemental signs stripped out of my old gear and I just think to myself "what a cupcaking mess". Ok, so new players won't have that particular inventory hell to fix, they have a blank slate, but nevertheless it's still a horribly messy and opaque system to learn. And there's almost no in-game documentation to help. Good luck working it all out without addon assistance. Laughably lazy design really. Add this re-runing mess to the ludicrous cost to reroll slots etc and I've just said "cupcake it" for now, until the promised cost reduction is implemented. So my gear remains un-runed which essentially means I'm having to sit out of all the content I previously enjoyed until I can get up the motivation to put in a heap of game hours just to get back to where I was at before. Tedious. Fixing the horrors of the rune system isn't about making the game easier or dumbing it down, it's about making it more accessible, more logical, more FUN. | |} ---- Can i have your stuff? | |} ---- ---- So much this ^ When players need a spreadsheet of "creative corporate accounting" complexity to figure out what Runes to use and where then there is a fundamental problem with that game system... ...end of. I'm levelling an Alt rather than go through the grind of Runing up. And if by the time I get to that point on my Alt nothing has changed I have 2 other lowbie Alts to run with for a while. Carbine need to learn that "challenging content" has nothing at all to do with interminable grinds and overly complex meta systems hampered by lazy RNG mechanics. All The Best | |} ---- The problem here lies in the MMO reward system. If the best loot comes from the most challenging content, then everyone will feel entitled to those rewards. Even with a multi-tier system, the same people currently calling for nerfs will continue to call for them. | |} ---- That is the excuse of the current casual trend of many mmorpgs people should not have to create there own challenges, games should be challenging/rewarding period. | |} ---- ---- ---- I would have to generally disagree with the sentiment that most if not all MMOs get the majority of funding from Hardcore players. Not only have multiple market studies proved this to be completely false, the market itself is a good indicator that Hardcore players simply do not dominate the market in the current game climate as they have in the past. At one time the market was likely driven by Hardcore players, and the loss of this majority has caused the market to change, some good, some certainly bad IMO. But it is silly to stand against emperical evidence that casuals dominate the modern MMO market IMO. It is more wishful thinking than actual reasoned observation or informed opinion from my perspective. That means, like it or not, casuals needs and desires will likely drive the current industry, to the detriment of that industry perhaps. | |} ---- So weird you say things like this, when it was the *exact opposite* experience in WildStar. Oh sure, there were a couple of really hardcore guilds who stuck around during the bleakest periods, but it wasn't the hardcores who kept the lights on all those months. It was the casuals, the role-players and the Housing addicts - the people least affected by the "Hardcore or Go Home" mentality - who stuck around in the greatest numbers. Discount those people in this community at your own peril. EDIT: Wow, two other people popped in to tell you how wrong you are in the time it took me to tell you how wrong you are. By the way, you're wrong. Really wrong. Like, the wrongest thing I've read all week level of wrong. Edited October 15, 2015 by TexArcana | |} ---- Proof please. Because ALL of the information I have seen around LOTRO and SWTOR show the opposite. Players who are into cosmetics and housing tend to spend more than "Harcore players". How many "hardcore" games are there out there making so much money they have no need to go for server mergers, Free To Play, and In Game Stores selling cosmetics and fluff? Oh, that's right. Not a single one. I have sent 100 times more in game time and money on my Housing Plot than I have on "hardcore" play (whatever that is). Hard content is NOT the same bad design, lazy RNG and grinds. All The Best | |} ---- instead of the best loot only coming from the hardest challenge, just give the hardest setting a better chance to get it. | |} ---- ---- Well, Eve. I'm not suggesting I know the numbers. I just don't, so I'm not going to pretend to think that hardcore drive the game. But Eve is an example of that. (It's worth noting that not all people who enjoy a challenge are "hardcore" though). | |} ---- Exactly. Carbino gave the "hardcores" EXACTLY what they asked for ... and guess what? It was too hardcore for them, so they all cried and left and made excuses. Today's players don't want hardcore. Challenging, yes. Mechanically superior, yes. Hardcore? Hardly. The "hardcores" of a decade ago now have jobs, spouses, children, soccer team and band practice. They have to walk the dogs and cook dinner. They have to carpool and do the budget. Ain't nobody got time for organizing 40-man raids and optimizing multiple builds and juggling runes, gear and interrupt schedules. | |} ---- Ok, yeah Eve. Not really an MMORPG though is it? All The Best | |} ---- And I will state, once again, even though I know people disagree, that I don't think it was "catering to hardcore" that cause the problems this game had. I'm don't want to get into that argument yet again, I just want to note my objection to the assumption that the game : a. catered to hardcore b. hardcore catering is what caused problems. I don't think either of those things are true, despite how common the perception/view/belief is. | |} ---- It isn't? | |} ---- Not really. I mean it's Online and Massively Multiplayer ... but it has a much in common with an MMORPG like WildStar as chess does with improv theater. :lol: ;) | |} ---- ---- giggles like a little girl... well maybe I am anyway, gota love the Interwebs. Housing peep here, been subbed 9months til F2P with a break over Xmas - the moment the announcement of big changes with Drop3 I left, came back the day after F2P announcement Total hours on main, 700hr'ish when last checked a month or 2 ago Total hours in a raid - 20hr max HARDCORE - Oh I miss the Mega threads on the debate of that word alone | |} ---- Yeah, plus you don't really see NEW people playing EVE. It's *very very VERY* newbie unfriendly at this point. The culture there is just awful and I am convinced the only people who play long-term are either sadists who live to make other people miserable, or masochists who somehow twistedly enjoy being ground into dust and ridiculed by others. | |} ---- It's a very different game, for sure. But it's still very much a part of the genre. The argument about hardcore pve vs pvp is an interesting discussion. But anyway, I wasn't arguing the point. Just saying that there is a game out there that's done it. Perhaps it is the exception that proves the rule. | |} ---- Exactly. How many players left when they first encountered the end-game grind-fest? No idea on exact numbers, but it was enough that Carbine / NCSoft decided that toning down how hardcore that was AND server mergers were required to keep the game financially viable. And a year or so on from that Carbine / NCSoft have now decided that the game with that refined model is still not all that financially viable so have had to go F2P and add an In Game Store full of fluff. But, sure if you read these forums you'd think it was the 5% of hordcore players who keep clamouring for more hardcore are the ones keeping the game alive. Yeah, right... The ongoing development path of this game has shown that Hardcore is no longer viable. All The Best | |} ---- Fair enough, but I think most of the extended analysis of WIldstars initial failure to find success after launch found that catering to hardcore players was a strong detriment to casual interest. The graphics style, combat style and game bugs was also named as top reasons. To be fair the shrinking MMO market and economic downturn were also cited as factors. | |} ---- Well I would consider it an MMO Strategy / Resource Management game with some RPG elements, rather than a traditional RPG. YMMV of course. All The Best Edited October 15, 2015 by RedneckRPGer | |} ---- Well, honestly I can't deride hardcore players for trying to desperately hold on to what they love. I used to be one of those players. I embraced a casual playstyle to change with the times, but I do miss some of the more draconian aspects of old gaming (permadeath, player looting, forced PVP, real cost to death, etc.). Back in those days you actually felt some trepidation when traveling in the world. I have, however, learned to enjoy casual aspects of gameplay. Some, not all mind you, but some hardcore players will certainly try anything to hold on to the past, including posting propaganda. Unfortunately they are not fooling anyone, least of all the game developers. Just to clarify...I am not accusing any poster in this thread of posting false or misleading information. I am simply stating that some hardcore players will resort to that kind of behavior in game forums. It is a common occurance in my experience. Edited October 15, 2015 by Lordartemis | |} ---- It is, generally, full of player who would be PvP Gankers in a traditional MMORPG. The type of people who call for mandatory open world PvP and then claim that PvPers are what keep games running. Or as I call them... ...Morons. All The Best | |} ---- Least of all the ACCOUNTANTS. :lol: | |} ---- Oh, I understand that; I too have dabbled with Hardcore raiding, when I was younger, and had more time to devote to they ongoing grind that requires. I understand why people get enjoyment from it. But Hardcore players can still have that, and have the majority of the game more casual friendly. I have no objection to Hardcore players having their shiny toys, as long as they don't mind me having mine. A game that can deliver both is going to be far more financially viable than one that only delivers one or the other. All The Best | |} ---- Ok, but don't miss this point- "grind-fest" is NOT the same as "make it less challenging". This goes back into those endless debates about what "hardcore" really means. From my perspective, the challenge in the dungeons and raids are what make the encounters fun. If you remove the challenge, you remove the distinctive that WS has in those areas. But there are a lots of things that were NOT fun (the original rune system, the original attunment, the original gear progression). Now whether those things were "hardcore" or not, I dunno. But they were BAD. So Carbine is removing what is BAD from the game and keeping what is good. The dungeon designs are really, really good. I understand they turn some people off. But man, the people who I've seen like them, really, REALLY like them. I completely applaud Carbine for all the steps they are making to make this content more accessible without changing the fundamental things that are great. Hardcore vs nonhardcore? Whatever. Doesn't matter to me. I've never considered myself hardcore, but I love the dungeons and raids in this game. They keep me coming back, and I feel they've only gotten more accessible, which I applaud. As far as launch "catering to hardcore"- my perspective is this. I thought there were bad systems in the game for both casual and hardcore players. It was a massive undertanking and it wasn't ideal at launch. Small problems ended up having large effects (such as putting great gear in adventures as gold rewards, targeted at the casual player, but resulting in something more "hardcore" than Carbine ever could have imagined). But I never once felt like the game wasn't interested in me as a player. I never even thought I would raid. It wasn't a goal or an expectation. And yet I still feel like the game was a blast, had a lot for me, and continually improved to meet my desires as a casual player. And later on, when I did get into raiding, that was amazing. I was stoked to be able to do that. And I was happy that Carbine made it accessible enough that even a player like me could do it. In the end, it probably all comes down to definitions, and as someone who loves instanced team pve content, WS probably hit my sweet spot more than other people. So much so that I was willing to forgive a lot of the mistakes. But it also means I never for a second felt the game was "hardcore". | |} ---- ...and perhaps those that want a reasonably realistic sandbox experience. Eve is a deadly, inhospitable and unforgiving environment, and it's players are a product of that environment to some extent IMO. | |} ---- If the reddit lore AMA demonstrated one thing it's that they very much want to develop a "fantasy trope" game. Blech. It's not that they catered to the hardcore, it's that they understood how to develop for that audience. If you look at what they released it very strongly suggests that they thought casuals loved dailes and grinds. They still believe that casuals demand easy and relatively unrewarding content. The one bright light for casuals was Housing, their "accidental masterpiece" except that only appeals to a fraction of the causal audience. Several important building blocks were locked behind level, reputation and renown (group content currency) walls. To top it all off it often required a significant amount of plat and/or access to a friendly Architect (tradeskill) | |} ---- ---- ---- Just 15 years ago "hardcore" was the only game in town so of course most players back then were "hardcore." Back then, gaming was a niche, counter-culture phenomenon. Today it's a global, multi-billion dollar, multi-million player business. The reason we were all "hardcore" 10-15 years ago is BECAUSE WE DIDN'T KNOW ANY BETTER! WoW hadn't ground all the rough edges off yet. Grinding was still a "viable" progression tactic. No one had even considered things like LFG and match-making tools - and nearly *everyone* was on the path to Raiding, since that was the only Endgame content around! Times changed. We grew up and the industry grew up with us. Thank the Eldan. There is no way I could play the same kind of MMO today that I played over a decade ago. As I said earlier, ain't nobody got time for that. | |} ---- Now I will accept this completely. It also explains leaving vet shiphands out of launch, which was, I believe, their biggest miss. I do think they are trying, and still getting it wrong, but hopefully if they keep going they'll make progress. I think the rune system was another miss for casuals, only because of how powerful it is. If you had the exact same rune system, but it only represented 1/3 of the power it does and was less costly, I think the whole thing works a lot better. I can see where the intent was. As I said, gear is very simplistic now and works on a more casual level. But too bad runes are necessary, even for shiphands :( | |} ---- I think that is a fair observation. I cut my teeth on UO, then Everquest. SWG was my home for a long time, at least until the CU/NGE debacle. I started out as hardcore in WoW, then transitioned to a casual player as the game changed. SWTOR was my home for a while before this game, quite a few mistakes, including the contraband slot machine situation caused me to leave that game and return to this one. | |} ---- ---- You are confusing terms, fanboy =/= hardcore. Wildstar didnt had enough hardcore players in order to sustain it to begin with, thats a fact and this is why we are here on f2p, BUT also didnt had enough fanboys to sustain it, like final fantasy or wow which is why they can charge a monthly sub, not because those games are "hardcore" because they have enough fanboys to keep them runing. | |} ---- you cannot compare a silly wow clone to EVE! ALSO EVE offers loads of casual content in high sec! | |} ---- I wasn't. I was responding to a statement that hardcore MMOs have not been successful. | |} ---- ---- Name a single "hardcore" game first of all. Don't come in here demanding stuff you want because you want it. If this game is too hard for you, then don't play it and go play FFXIV that is 1000% more accesible than this. Stop saying "lazy" RNG just because you're tired of getting targeted by a mechanic that you couldnt dodge even though it only requiered you to sprint, dash, jump, you name it, but you couldn't becuse you're not made for this kind of stuff and then afterwrds call it lazy, becuse you're mad you can't do it and you have to blame someone that is not you. | |} ---- The definition of what constitutes someone as a hardcore or casual player has become completely subjective these days. One thing i never see anyone say however is that they have any relation to solo and group play. Most people consider "hardcore" to be someone who puts more time and grind into a game while "casuals" are someone who play seldom. When i first started playing mmo's "hardcore" meant someone who basically just went to master the pvp / pve of game. It included perfect builds, solo'ing group content, speed leveling, gimping yourself in some games (fighting raid bosses solo with 1 hp in vindictus ^.^) and completing content perfectly such as finishing raids in fastest possible time without anyone losing hp or dying, often would find elitism among these players. Casuals were the opposite, it was someone who found their enjoyment from just messing around in the game, they did not care if they suck at pvp / pve they still did it, never worried about the effectiveness of their builds, and were fine if it took them months to hit max level or hours to kill a boss with their buddies, very rare to find elitism among these players. However I know there was an earlier definition of "hardcore" and "casual" as well that had to do with grind only. Hardcores were people who wanted to grind for everything, casuals were people who did not. Edited October 16, 2015 by Sev7n | |} ----